It’s taken me a while to get to it, but right now I’m enjoying the hell out of Jimmy Breslin’s brisk, droll The Good Rat, which is, among other things, a kind of summation of a lifetime of crime reporting. I was particularly tickled by this passage on the sloth of the typical gangster:
These people are not attracted to work even in illegitimate places. Sal Reale had his airline workers’ union office just outside Kennedy, and it was all right, except he had to hire people highly recommended by the Gambino family. Sal had a list of employees’ credentials. Typical was:
“Harry D’s son-in-law—$200G”
“Harry D’s wife—$150 G”
Each morning the list ruled the office, particularly when work orders started to fill the in baskets.
“The morning starts with sixty-two people in the office,” Sal recalls. “By ten o’clock there were twelve people working. We had a lot of paperwork. You had to fill out insurance forms, various federal formseverything you think of that they could put down on paper. We were left with twelve people to do the work. Where did the others go? Here’s a woman who gets up, picks up her purse, an walks past me without even nodding. I call after her, ‘Couldn’t you give us a hand?’ She says, ‘I was told I didn’t have to do any of this work. I have to get my hair done. I’m Paul Vario’s cousin.’ ”
As the Mafia “dissolves,” Breslin continues, “you inspect if for what it actually was, grammar-school dropouts who kill each other and purport to live by codes from the hills of Sicily that are either unintelligible or ignored.”
It lasted longest in film and print, through the false drama of victims’ being shot gloriously with machine guns but without the usual exit wounds the size of a soup plate. The great interest in the Mafia was the result of its members being so outrageously disdainful of all rules that just the sight of a mobster caused gleeful whispers. Somebody writing for a living could find it extremely difficult to ignore them
The Mafia became part of public belief because of movie stars who were Jewish. This dark fame began with Paul Muni playing Al Capone. After that came Edward G. Robinson, Tony Curtis, Lee Strasberg, Alan King, and on and on, part of an entire industry of writers, editors, cameramen, directors, gofers, lighting men, sound men, location men, casting agents—all on the job and the payroll because of the Mafia. Finally two great actors, Robert DeNiro and Al Pacino, put a vowel in there.
One could cinephile-nitpick, but the core conceit is sound. What’s interesting to my mind is that The Godfather doesn’t turn into anything less than a great film even with the knowledge that its core assumptions as they pertain to the reality that inspired it are, as it happens, utter horseshit. And I think Breslin understands that too. And even the mob movie that comes closest to showing “grammar school dropouts who kill each other,” Scorsese’s Goodfellas, can’t quite scrub its characters clean of the movie-star veneer of a certain glamour that they carry. Part of the glamour, of course, is embedded in the wickedness of their actions: the outrageous disdain for the rules that so appeals, in a sense, to some part of all our ids. It’s refreshing that Breslin has the good sense to call the popular culture depiction of mobsters out, but not get into much of a lather over it.
At my previous job, I worked with a particularly dense young woman, a New Yorker, who had a fondness for the Mafia. She was not, I think it’s worth mentioning, Italian. When discussing the Mafia at one point, and John Gotti in particular, she said “Giuliani should have taken a bullet for what he did to Gotti.” Whatever problems anyone might have with Giuliani, I think we can all agree that this is a bit much.
Broadly speaking, it’s that kind of attitude I object to when it comes to cinematic depictions of the mob, or criminals in general, although I don’t know if this woman picked up her attitudes from movies or not, and in any case I can’t really blame anything for this attitude except normal human stupidity. I despise DePalma’s SCARFACE, but I don’t do so on moral grounds, and it’s completely beyond me how anyone could watch that movie and come away with the sense that Tony Montana is somehow an example to be followed. If anything, the film is too programmatic in that sense, and besides taht the guy’s pretty miserable for much of the film. Also, then he gets killed.
Not only that, but I was watching GUN CRAZY the other day, and then later the commentary track by Glenn Erickson, and he said that the film “glamorized” crime. I don’t know which movie he was watching, but apart from the inevitable highs – as well as your point, Glenn, about the buried potential in everyone’s id – that would have to be a part of that lifestyle, otherwise nobody would take part in it, I saw a movie about a man and woman who were doomed the moment they met each other.
It’s strange how people read these things, I guess, and I say that as someone who is firmly on record here for being anti-BONNIE & CLYDE. The point being, Breslin is right (as far as I know, which isn’t as far as Breslin, but a little bit further than most, maybe), and the specific capital R reality of the Mafia, as opposed to its portrayal on screen, isn’t something that I can bother getting worked up about. THE GODFATHER may be “wrong”, but it’s certainly got the spirit.
Finally, sorry this isn’t more directly in line with what you actually wrote about…
Forget what I said about “a little bit further than most”, as it implies something that isn’t true. All I meant is, I’m possibly more interested in the topic than most people.
He participated a bit to the glamorization, though, didn’t he? “The Gang That Couldn’t Shoot Straight”? The various News columns over the decades?
Breslin’s a terrific writer, but he certainly contributed his own bit to the vast shelf of forgiving, “Jeeze, what a bunch of colorful guys these mugs are!” literature.
I don’t know how THE GANG THAT COULDN’T SHOOT STRAIGHT in any way glamorizes the mob. By presenting them as a bunch of practically sub-mental goons, it would seem to me to do the exact opposite.
Anyone who doesn’t like DePalma’s SCARFACE should be waterboarded at Guantanamo. Tony Montana is GOD.
Tony Montana is DEAD.
what about Gomorrah?
I must say, I found it quite satisfying when the two teenaged idiots never realized they were in over their heads, and suddenly–
@bill
No, not glamorizes, you’re right. What’s a better word – trivializes? De-fangs?
I admit it’s been a LONG time since I’ve read it, but what I remember was a book which saw the Mafia as a bunch of sort of colorful Mike-Mazurki-style goons, fitting subjects for a comic novel.
And I just wonder, since he’s talking about how pop culture has ignored the ugly, vicious side of gangland for years, if he hasn’t been a small part of that at times?
Not that we can’t, as Glenn says, both adore art like “The Godfather” movies and see them as operatic works of fiction that don’t (and aren’t meant to) truly reflect reality.
Personally, though, of all the mob movies, I think I’m still fondest
of “GoodFellas.” Yes, those characters are seductive, at first, but that’s because the story is about Henry’s seduction. And we learn pretty early on that those appearances are deceiving.
(Actually, I think as fascinated as Scorsese is by the violence and theatricality of those characters, he’s always kept his eyes open – right from “Mean Streets” – about who they really are…)
I guess that particular part of my id has finally died or is just tired of jacking itself off, because for the last, oh, three years or so my viewing (and, more important, my interest in viewing) of gangster stories has dropped off to nothing. I never even finished watching the Sopranos, just quit a few episodes into Season 4. I think for me, the ground has been completely covered: the’life’isawastelandwhereyoursouldissolvesbitbybituntilthere’snothingbutablackholeandanytalkofhonororethicsdeservesnothingbutacoldhollowlaugh. OK, for the billionth time, got it. Yes, they’re sometimes colorful characters with a lot of ‘energy’, who gives a shit…the energy is foul, and I haven’t the slightest interest in hanging out with them any more.
Sorry, the end of my oh-so-clever run-on got cut off somewhere. It should finish: “anytalkofhonororethicsshouldbegreetedwiththecold,hollowlaughitdeserves.”
@Stephen – Honestly, it’s been a LONG time since I’ve read the book, too, but “trivializes” and “de-fangs” sound about right to me. And we could discuss the merits of doing such a thing, but I don’t think Breslin contradicted himself before the fact by writing it. If ever there was a book that depicted the mob as a collection of high school drop-outs, it’s that one.
GOODFELLAS is my favorite, too, for the reasons you state, and for a host of others. But I think the film that comes closest to illustrating what Breslin is talking about is the underrated DONNIE BRASCO. I’ve never seen such a collection of such sad-sack, dumb-ass gangsters in my life. I think that portrayal of the true mid-to-low-level gangster is the most accurate depiction of 99% of the Mafia I’ve ever seen. As far as I know, anyway.
@Matthias – GOMORRAH is pretty brilliant, and I agree, that particular storyline is especially strong.
GODFATHER may romanticize the gangster life, but doesn’t GODFATHER II take that idea and throw it right back in our faces? (even more than GOODFELLAS, I’d argue, perhaps because I’ve always thought the film elevated Henry Hill into a little more than he actually was).
THE GODFATHER seems to romanticize the Mafia because it is the middle section of the story. It is the Good Times Montage of the GODFATHER SAGA. (I’ve always found it interesting when people say GODFATHER is their favorite of the 3 films. What they are really saying is they like the upbeat section of the story.) What makes the first film so seductive is that we are made part of a closed-off society. Don Corleone literally represents “good” in that world. We are never shown any victims of their crimes. Everything would’ve worked out if everyone had just followed the Don’s example. This is something Michael comes to realize at the end of PART II.
What makes GOODFELLAS the greatest gangster movie ever made is Scorsese’s slowly pulling away from The Life. Unlike MEAN STREETS, which puts us right in the middle of the action, GOODFELLAS observes with mounting horror just how awful this lifestyle really is. Scorsese is able to do this because Henry Hill is only half-Italian and Karen is Jewish. Their outsider status allows Scorsese to look in on what these guys are really like.
The first hour of GOODFELLAS is pure nostalgia. There is no real violence. What violence there is is mostly comic (the mailman scene, Jimmy threatening Murray). When Henry first sees a man shot he doesn’t know how to process it. (The scene immediately cuts to the “Speedo” party sequence.)
Scorsese’s ace in the hole is the opening pre-title sequence. The killing of Billy Batts in the turnk is fast and shocking. Hill’s voiceover says, “As far back as I can remember I always wanted to be a gangster.” Tony B’s “Rags to Riches” floods the soundtrack, washing away any memory of what we just saw. Scorsese literally shows us just how awful these people are, and we still luxuriate in their rule-breaking ways for at least the first hour of the film. The movie works it way back to that moment, allowing dread, guilt, and paranoia to take over. By the end it’s every man for himself.
And, finally, Tony Montana pre-dates Gordon Gekko by about 4 or 5 years. Take away the drugs and killings and you have a guy whose ruthless business sense is perfectly acceptable by many CEOs.
Something tells me there isn’t much difference between Tony Montana and someone like Trump.
Bill wrote: “I despise DePalma’s SCARFACE, but I don’t do so on moral grounds, and it’s completely beyond me how anyone could watch that movie and come away with the sense that Tony Montana is somehow an example to be followed.”
Tony Montana is a capitalist, and capitalists are heroes in American culture.
@Michael – Oh? Then why don’t I see teenagers walking around wearing THE AVIATOR t‑shirts?
A useful point of comparison with Breslin on the subject of the mafia and much else is the work of Murray Kempton, Breslin’s great contemporary. In the Kempton collection “Rebellions, Perversities, and Main Events,” there’s an essay about the full poverty of most mobsters that does an even more thorough job of deromanticizing La Cosa Nostra than the excellent “The Good Rat.” (The audiobook recording of “The Good Rat” is wonderful, by the way.)
Aaron: I’m not sure if people who prefer the first Godfather are “really” saying they prefer the upbeat section of the story. I mean, yes, it is more upbeat than parts two or three, and for some people that’s certainly a part of it, but it is also less structurally ambitious than the others. It tells its story with a certain appealing classicism, straight-through and unmuddled, that appeals to some people much more than II’s bifurcated fugue structure. Lucas apparently once told Coppola that the structure didn’t work– that he really had two movies and should just choose one or the other.
All that said, II is my absolute favourite of the three, both because of the darkness and because of its structure.
Bill,
Why do you think teenagers wear Scarface / Tony Montana t‑shirts?
Because TONY MONTANA fucking RULES, because life is about MONEY, POWER and VAG (though I’d switch out POWER for FAME), and because the AWESOMEST thing in the world is RISING TO THE TOP and fucking over everybody else and banging the hottest chick, then self-destructing in a BLAZE of fucking glory.
Anyone who doesn’t understand the basic human appeal of rise/fall negatives really doesn’t have the temperament where they should be loving or even watching movies. MOVIES ARE VISCERAL, movies are a way of BECOMING A GOD for two hours… Unfortunately most critics are a bunch of back-row dweebs who faint at the sight of a feather, and don’t appreciate the Fascist-Nietschean power of DESTROYING OTHERS, rising up as ONE MAN above all others, of objectifying and CONQUERING WOMEN like the mighty Conan.
Most critics are a bunch of leftist collectivist tweedy pussies who give a shit about things like poor people and the environment. Fuck ALL that. They should have more coked-up pussyhound critics who fuck over their colleagues and RISE TO FAME instead of huddling around in the furthest section of the screen dry as toast and limp as a wet cracker just looking for something to complain about because it gives their delicate sensibilities a headache.
Critics should be more like Tony Montana, Daniel Plainview, and Tyler Durden, and less like AO Scott.
YAHOO, YA MOTHERFUCKER!
Lex, I’m becoming more like Tylre Durden with every passing day, I promise you.
@Michael – The reasons they where those shirts has much more to do with the kind of tough-guy pose Lex describes above, and the romanticizing of criminals, than it does with capitalism. Again, if it did, DiCaprio as Howard Hughes would be a pretty big deal. Can you explain why he’s not?
“WEAR those shirts”…
Bill,
What is interesting is that Lex describes precisely what capitalists do and what capitalism is.
Okay, so you wear Che t‑shirts instead. I think I got it.
Bill, Michael’s analysis of Tony Montana’s appeal has too much of a reductive, reflex-Marxist ring for my taste, but there is something to it all the same, and people probably wouldn’t respond as intensely to Montana’s tough-guy swaggering if they didn’t see it as stemming from a delighted awareness of what it takes to succeed in America. Tony Montana epitomizes capitalism taken to extremes, and in his aggressivenes and acquisitive vitality he embodies the spirit of all-out, ruthless materialism. On the other hand, the Howard Hughes of THE AVIATOR represents something rather different: not the criminal as businessman but the obsessive, visionary tycoon–a capitalist phenomenon, I suppose, but one less likely to have a visceral appeal for audiences. Besides, even though the visionary tycoon may be an expression of capitalism, it’s not essentially tied to economics, being only a capitalist version of the Great Man of History idea. Hughes could just as well be Napoleon or Alexander or anyone else who tramples on the “little people” in the pursuit of his grand schemes.
It’s also worth noting that Di Caprio’s Howard Hughes has none of the singularity and charisma of Pacino’s wild performance.
Bill,
By your reply, I take it then that you accept my point.
I agree with some of what both Michael & Bill have to say on this subject. I’ve always felt that the tagline on the poster, “He loved the American Dream. With a vengeance.” was intended to shine a light on capitalism in the hands of a thug run amok. I think the film initially took hold as a cult object due to Tony Montana’s role as anti-hero. That is, he seizes Opportunity, does a lot of shitty things while still being viewed as superior/sympathetic to the majority of characters that surround him, and then dies (the dying is important for it helps many people swallow the very not nice things he does).
On the other hand, by the time we get to Scarface t‑shirts, we’re in the zone of teens trying to look cold and hard as they stalk through the mall scaring the elderly. It’s really all about attitude and fashion at this point, and Howard Hughes doesn’t work for these kids because he’s just not nasty or ruthless in the right way.
I guess I’m most in agreement with Aaron Aradillas on the similarities between Montana and Trump.
Point: BILL.
The fact that Michael Worrall seems to think capitalism is ANYTHING LESS THAN ABSOLUTELY AWESOME tells me he’s a scholastic douchebag perennially stuck in freshman-idealist mode.
Yeah, okay, bro, the world would be a WHOLE LOT BETTER, right, if we just sat around by our Zapatista campire strumming acoustic guitar with the migrant workers and SPREAD THE WEALTH? Fuck that. Poor people are poor for ONE REASON: They’re stupid. Come on, admit it, POOR PEOPLE SUCK, and you don’t REALLY give a shit about them, elsewise you’d do volunteer work or house some political refugees or at the very least wouldn’t cross the street six ways to Sunday to avoid a homeless man.
Besides, if we lived in Socialist Utopia, you DO know only Brad Pitt-looking guys would get pussy, right? The GENIUS OF CAPITALISM is MONEY CAN BUY SEX. If we’re all equal, how are guys like us every gonna bang models and coke whores? It’s just gonna be Gael Garcia Bernal pulling a train of hot vag because he’s the best looking if you throw money out of the equation.
VIVA LA CAPITALISM!!!!!
Michael – No.
I also take it that by your refusal to address my point about Hughes, that you don’t have an answer.
Yeah, I like the idea being presented here that a bunch of hip-hop kids and gangsta wannabes are gonna eschew street-smart, coke-snorting, gun-toting, chick-banging Tony Montana and instead embrace old-ass white-bread Howard Hughes with his fedora and Model T car and lightning-fast pal, all nancing around on golf courses with that hideous hag Hepburn.
Right on, guys. Didn’t you guys come up listening to hip-hop and dancing in crews and strapping on your 1990 Cross Colours and blaccent trying to be “hard”?
Well, that’s my point, Lex. Capitalism isn’t the point of Tony Montana being embraced – crime and drugs are the point.
Also:
“Didn’t you guys come up listening to hip-hop and dancing in crews and strapping on your 1990 Cross Colours and blaccent trying to be ‘hard’?”
No, I didn’t.
Lex, all caps CAPITALISM doesn’t seem to be working out too well for you personally, what with your lack of money, fame and pussy. Maybe a little less capitalism would grant you some face time with your privileged stars and get you a little action. For all your praising of capitalism it seems to have fucked you over well and good, leaving you at an impossible distance from those desires its instilled in you so deeply, endlessly comlaining about how this system that you love so is keeping you down.
Evelyn Roak: You’re a chick?
If you’re under 30, email me a picture of your feet please.
Bill,
My answer is that I am wondering what the fundamental distinction is between a Howard Hugues and a Tony Montana. You seem to think there is one, but you offer no criterion by which to distinguish them. They seem undistinguished to me – both ruthless thugs, climbing their way up to the top and squashing everyone in their way. I take it that is what the nature of capitalism is. You seem to have no argument against my characterization.
If you don’t think CAPITALISM RULES, you’re an ASSHOLE.
BEING RICH = BEING GOD = buying women.
BOW.
Bill wrote: “Capitalism isn’t the point of Tony Montana being embraced – crime and drugs are the point.”
What is the difference between business and crime?
Sorry Lex, you, as I gather from your profuse protestations, lack the requisite money, fame and power.
Do you live in LA?
Seriously, it would be kinda cool to talk to a woman who wasn’t a stripper, for the first time since 2002.
LexG confuses the green glow of his slowly fading telecine with dollar bills.
Michael, I’m not avoiding your point – it’s just that this is the first time you’ve actually expressed it. And do you honestly require a list of successful capitalists who achieved whatever they’ve achieved without destroying others? Do you honestly need for someone to refute your bumper-sticker point that there’s no difference between business and crime? That a man owning and running a successful hardware store is no different from Tony Montana? I mean, for fuck’s sake, I thought you guys prided yourselves on seeing shades of gray. You’re an absolutist nightmare, pal.
You want an argument against your characterization? You’re a moron. How’s that.
@ LexG, I think Mr. Show got to that equation before you did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF8wLg5Asgo
Of course, Bob and David are funny and talented instead of just publicly playing up their depression until it curdles into revolting and hateful self-loathing. But the skit is still the same basic idea as your shtick, anyway.
I adore Scarface, but it has nothing to do with some celebration, or critique, of capitalism and everything to do with its very Bigness– it’s an excessive and ridiculous cartoon of machismo. “It’s”, in this case, refers to both Pacino’s performance and the film itself; DePalma’s style is the perfect match for the material. I don’t think the film glorifies its frothing rabid hilariously gigantic monster of a protagonist, nor do I think it precisely condemns it: it just presents him, completely and gleefully free of morals, in much the same way a certain W. Shakespeare presented us with Richard III and Aaron the Moor.
I think that the film’s embrace by hip-hop culture has less to do with the film’s intent– if such a thing can ever really be sussed out– and more to do with the fact that gangster rap in particular thrives on the same variety of cartoon machismo and self-mythologizing.
That’s my two cents, anyway.
Bill,
The claim is not any individual capitalist must resort to murder and pillage at any moment in time but, rather, that the dynamics of the capitalist marketplace compel capitalist firms to break laws to pressure governments to engage in assassinations and wars, etc, merely in order to remain profitable under conditions of profit rate declines or over-accumulation, inevitable features of the capitalist mode of production.
The only thing moronic is to assume that one can have a capitalism without murder, torture, exploitation, imperialism, immiseration, or crime.
If think you can refute the labor theory of value which has demonstrated the inevitability of these laws of motion of capital, I invite you to do so. We will soon see who turns out to be the moron. My guess is that I when I start having to produce the empirical data that proves my case, you are going to suddenly become very quiet. I, at least, will not have to rely on ad hominems as a substitute for an absence of arguments
As George Bush, Jr said: Bring it on!
Let’s just skip ahead to the empirical evidence, why don’t we, that proves that it’s impossible to have capitalism without torture, murder, and etc. Oh, and crime. All of which are, you imply, somehow unique to capitalism.
While you’re gathering that evidence that proves that it is impossible to have capitalism without all those things, see if you can dig up the system of government or economics that didn’t also feature all of those things.
Worrall, take that shit down to the freshman student union and leave it there. Jesus Christ, homes, get off the campus once in a while. What a load of bullshit. Everyone likes making money. Live with it.
PEOPLE.…!
Jeez, I have a consultation with a home pest professional, try to do a nice farewell lunch for Filmbrain with the Self-Styled Siren, then do my afternoon constitutional, and all holy hell breaks loose on this thread AND that other thread. I’m all for lively discussion, but please, go easy on the moron stuff. Come on. Show a some courtesy, and some sympathy, and some taste. Use all your well-known politesse. You know the rest.
Bill,
The empirical evidence I offered was meant to show that the predictions of the labor theory of value have indeed been confirmed, thus showing that the theory is a scientific one. If you would like to challenge the validity of the theory, you may offer an argument challenging on it either on logical or empirical grounds. So far you have offered neither. (You have offered, however, many ad hominems.)
The phenomena that I claimed are intrinsic to capitalism are so because of the laws of motion of capital themselves. Those laws of motion are unique to the capitalist mode of production. Economic crises due to overproduction are unique to the capitalist mode of production; no other mode of production has crises of overproduction.
^ fun guy
So…there will be no empirical evidence that will make me go very quiet? Okay. Have a swell day.
Bill,
What would you like to see evidence in support of?
Centralization of capital?
Concentration of capital?
The tendency for the value rate of profit to decline during long wave periods of expansion?
The relative immiseration of the proletariat?
An increase in the physical ratio of machinery and raw matrials to current labor?
The tendency for technological change to substitute machines for labor?
Periodically recurrent recessions and unemployment?
or
A secular decline in the percentage of self-employed producers and an increase in the percentage of the labor force that are employees?
Which specifically of these trends do you contest are not operative in capitalist economies? Or do you contest all of them? Are you ready to produce rival data contradicting mine when I produce the data you request?
@ Michael Worrall, I’m curious: Trotskyite? Maoist? RCP? Solidarity? Freedom Road? ISO? I love sectarians.
Michael, why don’t you simply prove your original point, that got this whole ball rolling? Prove that crime is unique to capitalist societies. Of course, in order to do that you’ll have to prove that crime doesn’t exist in any other kind of society, but I’m sure you have a pamphlet about that tucked away somewhere.
Bill,
Where did I say that crime was :unique” to capitalism?
DUH,
I am not a sectarian.
Correction:
Bill,
Where did I say that crime was “unique” to capitalism?
An attempt at context: Is this the same Michael Worrall who not long ago informed the San Francisco Bay Guardian that OF COURSE Gus Hall – albeit the long-term head of the American Communist Party –was not actually a Communist because, you know, he was a Stalinist?
Apologies in advance if not, But if so, I think we’re going down a strange twisty political sinkhole here that even Alice in Wonderland could not navigate.
In any case, just looking for some clarification of who’s arguing what here. And thanking you both for finally scaring away LexG. Bless you. Even if, you know, Rosa Klebb. HAVE YOU SEEN HER FEET? Pwned. BOW to her.
Okay, so maybe it wasn’t your original point, but here’s where you said it (hint: it was earlier today):
“The phenomena that I claimed are intrinsic to capitalism are so because of the laws of motion of capital themselves. Those laws of motion are unique to the capitalist mode of production. Economic crises due to overproduction are unique to the capitalist mode of production; no other mode of production has crises of overproduction.”
Again, maybe not your original point, but that’s still the one I’d most like you to prove.
And if you’re backing off that point, or wish to extract a different point from it, then, like Stephen, I’d like to know what, in fact, you are arguing, exactly (if you plan on saying, for instance, that you said crime, et al, is INTRINSIC to capitalism, not unique, then I would ask why pair that point, such as it is, with the other idea that overproduction – which presumably leads to all those horrors – is unique to capitalism?). That the crime and etc. that can be found in capitalist societies are the result of capitalism, and when they’re found elsewhere they’re the result of something else entirely? If crime and business are the same thing, as you’ve said, then what’s crime synonymous with in other societies?
You know what, I’ve given this some thought, and this is getting silly – or has been silly for some time – so whatever response you leave, Michael, will be the end of it, as far as I’m concerned. Go with God, or whoever.
Stephen Whitty,
Here is my original post on the San Francisco Bay Guardian which was a reply to a one “Glen Matlock”:
“Glen,
Gus Hall was a member of the American Communist Party, which was a Stalinist party, that supported Roosevelt and the Hitler/Stalin pack. Hall may have identified himself as a Communist, but his support of the above has very little to do with Marx or Lenin’s ideas.
Lenin condemned ultra leftists, so that leaves Ayers out as well
People can call themselves what ever they want, what really matters what they do and show an understanding of what Communism is. Which leads me to my point: that you consistently demonstrate a misunderstanding of Communism. ”
It appears to me, Stephen, that you may have that same misunderstanding as well.
@ Michael Worrall: ah, a Leninist! How could I have left that off my list of options? I guess I should have just asked you to locate yourself on this map: http://freedomroad.org/staticfiles/familytree/megatree.html
Oh no, obviously I read your original post at that other site, Michael. In full. That’s why I referred to it, as it seemed to illustrate where you were coming from in this discussion, and why the waters here were getting both stubbornly doctrinaire and increasingly muddied.
Because my understanding of your SFBG post was that, whether or not Gus Hall was the long-time face of the Communist Party in the United States, YOU don’t recognize him as someone who understood “what Communism is.” So, therefore, he’s not a real (the surprising upper-case choice is yours) Communist.
Which, to amplify your writing, seems to be saying that “people can call themselves what ever they want” but that other people – i.e., YOU – are to decide what they ACTUALLY are.
This is certainly convenient.
But – I’m sorry – someone who decides that he or she will unilaterally decide what words mean, no matter what other people say they mean, is someone out of Lewis Carroll, and not a suitable debating partner, in this or any other forum outside of Wonderland.
So, as Bill said, go with God. Or Trotsky. Or with the Marx of your choosing (I suggest Gummo). I’m moving on.
But seriously, thanks again for liberating this thread from LexG – even if it meant bringing it into the sort of redder-than-thou, left-fringe fulminations I haven’t seen since the days of Bob Avakian.
Stephen,
Nowhere in Marx is there an argument that advancing socialism requires or depends upon enlarging the privileges of a parasitic, bureaucratic caste.
Bill,
There is no evidence whatsoever that crime is inherent to human nature; however, there is every evidence that the roots of social evils lie in the division of societies into classes where a ruling class exploits the labor of an oppressed producing class.